Shattered Kingdoms

Seems like there's some general consensus that the bash (and trip?) vs reflex save needs to be tweaked a bit to make at least bash useful again in PvP.

Hoping more experience players chime in, but it seemed unjustifiably difficult for other players to land a bash my size medium sorcerer with 17 reflex and dex modded to 17.

I still hear people complaining about this all the time, so bump.

I second this. It's near impossible for a merc/barbarian to secure a kill on anyone now unless the person is afk or they get that 1 extremely lucky bash or trip in and manage to kill them in the time they're prone. But against any player who knows what they're doing you're never going to kill them with w merc/barb and it will just be a quaff heal battle until someone flees/quaffs word.

It should get scaled down a bit. It is hard to bash someone, even more so to land two consecutive bashes.

What do people think the success rate of bash should be in the case of two human mercenaries with equal stats fighting it out where the target has a very high (let's say +30) reflex save? What about if the target has a very low (let's say +0) reflex save? Is there a consensus on this, or do opinions vary widely?

I think reflex need not affect prone at all. Let it be based on dex and size. I'd even argue intelligence for a smarter take down. The time spent prone when bashed and tripped can also be scaled to size and dex. A giant would take a bit longer to stand back up then say a tiny sprite.

If you choose to stack massive reflex, then avoiding getting proned seems reasonable. Same as if you stack massive WP, you're not getting charmed and your spells aren't getting dispelled, etc.

It'd like to see the saves tweaked so that you have to choose which two of the three your current kit is going to avoid. Walking around with massive saves in all three categories should be very difficult if not impossible.

I am in the same mindset as saxifragaceae.

I am against reverting bash to its old behavior. It was previously an "I win" maneuver that didn't allow for much interactivity or fun on the part of the victim OR the aggressor. Now it's about as effective as other "I win" spells, which is to say that it's highly variable on luck (assuming the defender has a good kit). The difference being that you probably won't kill them with a single success on bash but it also doesn't cost as much to keep trying to use it (because the alternatives available aren't that much better).

Obviously there is a delicate balance between appealing to PKers and appealing to "everyone else". If I am going to err, I would rather err on the side of "everyone else", because if you go by Bartle's psychology, PKers are only 25% of the equation (the others being Socializers, Explorers and Achievers). But that doesn't mean I will discount it, because PK done correctly is exciting and that brings energy to the game.

And I do think the key is that PK is exciting -- AKA not a forgone conclusion. Although PKers would prefer to be able to build a character that will win every time, I don't want to offer that as an option. The fact that you can stack all three saves to very high levels is a failing in that regard. We have tried in the past to force people to make choices, but it seems as though we would need to restrict enchants further for that.

The key issue for PKers, in my opinion, really shouldn't be about how bash works. Rather it should be making it harder to escape from a fight. Right now if you can take an action, then you can quaff a potion of recall and almost always successfully escape. I believe it would be much more exciting to make the escape portion a mad scramble that relies heavily on player skill to be successful.

One option for doing that would be to make recall potions not work as well during a fight or within one tick of being in a fight. Instead of taking you to your recall point, it would only take you a few rooms away in the safest direction. At that point, it's all about how fast you can think on your feet to run away, versus how fast the attacker is at following you. Chase scenes are what gets the blood pumping.

While this is good in theory, with the way reflex and bash/trip is currently you're never going to land any kills against anyone that isn't AFK or stuck in casting lag. So unless you jump someone 5v1 you're just not going to land kills as a Barb/Merc.

IMO, there needs to be a way to differentiate NPC from PC in terms of bashing.

I'm okay with PCs landing trips/bashes (obviously I play a mercenary, so I am probably biased here).

I'm not really okay with sorcerors/etc running around with Lathron + Champ-level Guard NPC + storebought pet, and their "o all bash" giving them 3 shots at landing it with ZERO risk to the caster aside from 1 round~ of order lag, whereas a PC trying to bash/trip can easily wind up proning themselves.