Hellions are also bad and should be fixed

Tragonis · **Posted:** Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:29 pm

Paladins and Hellions supposed to be equals. Evasion doesn't negate BoG just gives a hellion a weapon to protect itself with. Paladin will always beat a hellion unless the hellion has a lucky cleave.

And that just doesn't sound right with two equal classes.

BAI7l7 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:22 pm

We could also let hellions cleave once anytime during battle.

Bones · **Joined:** Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:36 pm **Posts:** 335

Evasion does work against bolt of glory, pretty sure.

Tragonis · **Posted:** Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:07 am

Yeah it would give them a chance to avoid BOG damage. But they still would get trapped. Maybe reduce BOG trap time? Currently it's about 3 to 4 minutes while taunt lasts one.

Thuban · **Joined:** Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:26 am **Posts:** 423

We recently put in some NPCs and updated old NPCs that can serve as good options for domination targets. I also built the war drum in the frozen wastes specifically to serve as a domination target. I don't know if people are aware of that, but the intention was it could be used as a charm, a dominate, or just as something that follows you around and joins in fights. It's a mercenary that is specialized in the weapons it starts with.

I also wonder if people are aware that domination and charm do not work exactly the same. Domination does not hamper the intelligence of the target the same way charm does. This means, for instance, that priests or necromancers that are dominated may function better than those that are charmed when it comes to casting certain spells. Some of those spells may surprise you.

I'm not here saying that there are not any problems to be corrected with regard to paladin/hellion balance, but be sure to get all the facts about the current abilities.

TacoRobot · **Joined:** Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:31 am **Posts:** 240

Thuban wrote:

We recently put in some NPCs and updated old NPCs that can serve as good options for domination targets. I also built the war drum in the frozen wastes specifically to serve as a domination target. I don't know if people are aware of that, but the intention was it could be used as a charm, a dominate, or just as something that follows you around and joins in fights. It's a mercenary that is specialized in the weapons it starts with.

I also wonder if people are aware that domination and charm do not work exactly the same. Domination does not hamper the intelligence of the target the same way charm does. This means, for instance, that priests or necromancers that are dominated may function better than priests that are charmed when it comes to casting certain spells. Some of those spells may surprise you.

I'm not here saying that there are not any problems to be corrected with regard to paladin/hellion balance, but be sure to get all the facts about the current abilities.

I am asking this out of genuine curiosity, because it seems pretty clear that whatever it is you're seeing, the playerbase doesn't.

What can you do to update an expert level NPC to make it worth the concentration/mana drain on domination? Is there some expert level barb NPC somewhere that secretly has the HP and skill level of a GM or something?

I currently spend what, like 60-70% of my deep-elf's 25int concentration on a NPC that is literally just there to take up a spot in the formation for me, or at best, help with coin farming.

Expecting players to go...scour the width of the game for that one expert level NPC that is better than all the rest (and even then, how are you really to /know/ it's better? We can't see stats.), etc, seems a little farfetched. We don't even have a way to tell if a NPC is level 35 or level 15 aside from "well, that doesn't /feel/ like it's Expert?" Maybe you can identify corpses? That feels kind of wild as an expectation.

Players literally can not "get all the facts". We do not have the tools immortals do.

Thuban · **Joined:** Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:26 am **Posts:** 423

TacoRobot wrote:

Thuban wrote:

We recently put in some NPCs and updated old NPCs that can serve as good options for domination targets. I also built the war drum in the frozen wastes specifically to serve as a domination target. I don't know if people are aware of that, but the intention was it could be used as a charm, a dominate, or just as something that follows you around and joins in fights. It's a mercenary that is specialized in the weapons it starts with.

I also wonder if people are aware that domination and charm do not work exactly the same. Domination does not hamper the intelligence of the target the same way charm does. This means, for instance, that priests or necromancers that are dominated may function better than priests that are charmed when it comes to casting certain spells. Some of those spells may surprise you.

I'm not here saying that there are not any problems to be corrected with regard to paladin/hellion balance, but be sure to get all the facts about the current abilities.

I am asking this out of genuine curiosity, because it seems pretty clear that whatever it is you're seeing, the playerbase doesn't.

What can you do to update an expert level NPC to make it worth the concentration/mana drain on domination? Is there some expert level barb NPC somewhere that secretly has the HP and skill level of a GM or something?

I currently spend what, like 60-70% of my deep-elf's 25int concentration on a NPC that is literally just there to take up a spot in the formation for me, or at best, help with coin farming.

Expecting players to go...scour the width of the game for that one expert level NPC that is better than all the rest (and even then, how are you really to /know/ it's better? We can't see stats.), etc, seems a little farfetched.

Players literally can not "get all the facts". We do not have the tools immortals do.

A lot of the facts I get by casting domination and trying things out. Just so you know. There's nothing I can specifically see about how the spell works. I just try it out on NPCs that exist in the game. A lot of these NPCs have been in the game for over 20 years and I knew to check them out because I encountered them at some point in the distant past as a player. Others have been updated, and those updates were mentioned in the building update thread that will give you a clue about areas to check in so you do not have to go everywhere in the game.

Regarding your question, I believe domination should have about 2/3 the concentration and mana cost it does now. That's not something I can address, as it is a coding issue, and not to mention I could not unilaterally make such a decision anyway. That's my opinion on the matter though. It is presently better than people give it credit for, but it also costs too much concentration and mana for what it does.

TacoRobot · **Joined:** Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:31 am **Posts:** 240

For the record, the necromancer thing appears to be a complete bust.

I didn't expect it to be /good/ by any means, since the undead are capped at like level 30. But I did think it'd at least be worth a few lulz. But even that doesn't seem possible.

Because it looks like...you can't order NPCs to order other NPCs?

Quote:

[HP: 80%] [ME: 10%] [PE: 95%]
>
w
You walk west.

The Forge
The intense heat and the dim, ruddy light that illuminates this part of
the lodge comes from glowing forge that dominates the back wall. There is a
simply huge anvil nearby, and many differently sized anvils and hammers for
use by both human and giants hands. This forge is quite large. You see
quite a number of different metal objects, in various stages of repair. The
glowing light reveals just enough to work by.
Obvious exits: e
A knight's lance is left here.
Bjarni the Blacksmith is working here.
A ghastly-white male human walks in from the east.
A skeleton of a marcid male human walks in from the east.
A skeleton of a marcid male human walks in from the east.
A skeleton of a marcid male human walks in from the east.
A skeleton of a marcid male human walks in from the east.

[HP: 80%] [ME: 10%] [PE: 95%]
>
Bjarni the Blacksmith looks up at you from his place at the forge and nods.

[HP: 80%] [ME: 10%] [PE: 95%]
>
i
You are carrying:
( 2) a wicked-looking halberd (brand new)
67 copper coins
63 silver coins
29 gold coins
3 obsidian coins
a sharp mithril-tipped shovel
a small jade icon (brand new)
a small stone triptych (brand new)
a potion of healing
a mug of hot coffee filled with water

[HP: 80%] [ME: 10%] [PE: 95%]
>
l lanc
This is a silvery white decorative lance, usually seen carried by knights
as they parade on their steeds through a city. However, this particular
weapon seems to have seen a fair share of battle as well, bearing several
dents and its tip slightly blunted. Intricately engraved arround the
weapon's grip is a pattern of maple leaves. The lance's main body is made
out of tanso steel, covered with a wooden layer at the grip.

This lance is a small-sized polearm made of silver.

[HP: 80%] [ME: 10%] [PE: 95%]
>
res
You sit down and rest your tired bones.

[HP: 80%] [ME: 10%] [PE: 95%]
>
list
Action/Item/Price
Resize A wicked-looking halberd, for 1 platinum, 8 gold, 7 silver, 6 copper (per size category).
Repair A wicked-looking halberd (brand new), for 1 platinum, 8 gold, 8 silver, 4 copper.
Resize A wicked-looking halberd, for 1 platinum, 8 gold, 7 silver, 6 copper (per size category).
Repair A wicked-looking halberd (brand new), for 1 platinum, 8 gold, 9 silver, 6 copper.

[HP: 88%] [ME: 13%] [PE:100%]
>
resize halb medium
Nah... You feel too relaxed...

[HP: 88%] [ME: 13%] [PE:100%]
>
st
You stop resting, and stand up.

[HP: 88%] [ME: 13%] [PE:100%]
>
resize halb medium
It costs 3 platinum, 7 gold, 5 silver, 3 copper to resize a wicked-looking halberd.
You receive 9 platinum, 8 gold, 4 silver, 4 copper in change.

[HP: 88%] [ME: 13%] [PE:100%]
>
resize 2.halb medium
You haggle the price down to 3 platinum, 4 gold, 4 silver, 1 copper coins.
You receive 4 gold, 3 copper in change.

[HP: 88%] [ME: 13%] [PE:100%]
>
res
You sit down and rest your tired bones.

[HP: 88%] [ME: 13%] [PE:100%]
>
l

The Forge
The intense heat and the dim, ruddy light that illuminates this part of
the lodge comes from glowing forge that dominates the back wall. There is a
simply huge anvil nearby, and many differently sized anvils and hammers for
use by both human and giants hands. This forge is quite large. You see
quite a number of different metal objects, in various stages of repair. The
glowing light reveals just enough to work by.
Obvious exits: e
A knight's lance is left here.
An animated skeleton of a marcid male human stands here silently.
An animated skeleton of a marcid male human stands here silently.
An animated skeleton of a marcid male human stands here silently.
An animated skeleton of a marcid male human stands here silently.
(Charmed) A ghastly-white male human broods within his thoughts, his eyes rolled up into his head.
Bjarni the Blacksmith is working here.

[HP: 88%] [ME: 13%] [PE:100%]
>
l lanc
This is a silvery white decorative lance, usually seen carried by knights
as they parade on their steeds through a city. However, this particular
weapon seems to have seen a fair share of battle as well, bearing several
dents and its tip slightly blunted. Intricately engraved arround the
weapon's grip is a pattern of maple leaves. The lance's main body is made
out of tanso steel, covered with a wooden layer at the grip.

This lance is a small-sized polearm made of silver.

[HP: 88%] [ME: 13%] [PE:100%]
>
get lanc
You get a silvery white lance .

[HP: 88%] [ME: 13%] [PE:100%]
>
st
You stop resting, and stand up.

[HP: 88%] [ME: 13%] [PE:100%]
>
resize lanc medium
You haggle the price down to 9 gold, 5 silver, 1 copper coins.
You receive 4 gold, 5 silver, 2 copper in change.

[HP: 88%] [ME: 13%] [PE:100%]
>
res
You sit down and rest your tired bones.

[HP: 88%] [ME: 13%] [PE:100%]
>
inf

Party Name: !
Goals: Anything Destination: Anywhere
Statuses: [Mas to Gra] Alignments: Unprincipled to Diabolic
(F1) [a skeleton of a] (F2) [a skeleton of a] (F3) [a skeleton of a]
(M1) [a skeleton of a] (M2) [---------------] (M3) [ Seracyn]
(B1) [a ghastly-white] (B2) [---------------] (B3) [---------------]
Characters Rank Pos Here Follow Prone HP ME PE
Seracyn Leader M3 Yes No No 88% 13% 100%
A ghastly-white male huma Member B1 Yes Yes No 100% 59% 100%
A skeleton of a marcid ma Member F2 Yes No No 100% 100% 100%
A skeleton of a marcid ma Member F1 Yes No No 100% 100% 100%
A skeleton of a marcid ma Member F3 Yes No No 100% 100% 100%
A skeleton of a marcid ma Member M1 Yes No No 100% 100% 100%

[HP: 88%] [ME: 13%] [PE:100%]
>
give halb skel
You give a wicked-looking halberd to a skeleton of a marcid male human.

[HP: 88%] [ME: 13%] [PE:100%]
>
give halb 2.skel
You give a wicked-looking halberd to a skeleton of a marcid male human.

[HP: 88%] [ME: 13%] [PE:100%]
>
give lanc 3.skel
You give a silvery white lance to a skeleton of a marcid male human.

[HP: 88%] [ME: 13%] [PE:100%]
>
o all wear all
Ok.

[HP: 88%] [ME: 13%] [PE:100%]
>
o all o all wear all
Ok.

[HP: 88%] [ME: 13%] [PE:100%]
>
l skele
The animated skeleton of a fallen warrior stands here silently, awaiting its
masters next command. It does not move or respond to noises or motion. It
simply waits. When its master does order it, you see it turn towards you.
The toothy grin almost makes you think that it gets some sort of profound
pleasure from being controlled like this, but you look deep into its empty
eye sockets and see nothing. No emotion, no feeling, no existence.
Its right arm is bleeding.
Overall, a skeleton of a marcid male human is in excellent condition.

A skeleton of a marcid male human is using:
<worn as skin> ivory hide (brand new)

[HP: 88%] [ME: 13%] [PE:100%]
>
l 2.skele
The animated skeleton of a fallen warrior stands here silently, awaiting its
masters next command. It does not move or respond to noises or motion. It
simply waits. When its master does order it, you see it turn towards you.
The toothy grin almost makes you think that it gets some sort of profound
pleasure from being controlled like this, but you look deep into its empty
eye sockets and see nothing. No emotion, no feeling, no existence.
Overall, a skeleton of a marcid male human is in excellent condition.

A skeleton of a marcid male human is using:
<worn as skin> ivory hide (brand new)

[HP: 88%] [ME: 13%] [PE:100%]
>
inf

Party Name: !
Goals: Anything Destination: Anywhere
Statuses: [Mas to Gra] Alignments: Unprincipled to Diabolic
(F1) [a skeleton of a] (F2) [a skeleton of a] (F3) [a skeleton of a]
(M1) [a skeleton of a] (M2) [---------------] (M3) [ Seracyn]
(B1) [a ghastly-white] (B2) [---------------] (B3) [---------------]
Characters Rank Pos Here Follow Prone HP ME PE
Seracyn Leader M3 Yes No No 88% 13% 100%
A ghastly-white male huma Member B1 Yes Yes No 100% 59% 100%
A skeleton of a marcid ma Member F2 Yes No No 100% 100% 100%
A skeleton of a marcid ma Member F1 Yes No No 100% 100% 100%
A skeleton of a marcid ma Member F3 Yes No No 100% 100% 100%
A skeleton of a marcid ma Member M1 Yes No No 100% 100% 100%

[HP: 88%] [ME: 13%] [PE:100%]
>
l

The Forge
The intense heat and the dim, ruddy light that illuminates this part of
the lodge comes from glowing forge that dominates the back wall. There is a
simply huge anvil nearby, and many differently sized anvils and hammers for
use by both human and giants hands. This forge is quite large. You see
quite a number of different metal objects, in various stages of repair. The
glowing light reveals just enough to work by.
Obvious exits: e
An animated skeleton of a marcid male human stands here silently.
An animated skeleton of a marcid male human stands here silently.
An animated skeleton of a marcid male human stands here silently.
An animated skeleton of a marcid male human stands here silently.
(Charmed) A ghastly-white male human broods within his thoughts, his eyes rolled up into his head.
Bjarni the Blacksmith is working here.

[HP: 88%] [ME: 13%] [PE:100%]
>
o gha wave
A ghastly-white male human waves happily.
Ok.

[HP: 88%] [ME: 13%] [PE:100%]
>
o gha o skele wear all
Ok.

[HP: 88%] [ME: 13%] [PE:100%]
>
o gha order skelet wear all
Ok.
From across the tundra, a mournful howl echoes off the walls.
Your pulse slows to normal.
Your symbol slowly begins to melt and reform!

[HP: 97%] [ME: 20%] [PE:100%]
>
l skele
The animated skeleton of a fallen warrior stands here silently, awaiting its
masters next command. It does not move or respond to noises or motion. It
simply waits. When its master does order it, you see it turn towards you.
The toothy grin almost makes you think that it gets some sort of profound
pleasure from being controlled like this, but you look deep into its empty
eye sockets and see nothing. No emotion, no feeling, no existence.
Its right arm is bleeding.
Overall, a skeleton of a marcid male human is in excellent condition.

A skeleton of a marcid male human is using:
<worn as skin> ivory hide (brand new)

[HP: 97%] [ME: 20%] [PE:100%]
>
o all o all drop all
Ok.

[HP: 97%] [ME: 20%] [PE:100%]
>
Off in the distance, you hear the sounds of a blacksmith.

[HP: 97%] [ME: 20%] [PE:100%]
>
o ghast o all drop all
Ok.

[HP: 97%] [ME: 20%] [PE:100%]
>

[HP: 97%] [ME: 20%] [PE:100%]
>
sle;e
Huh? Type 'help' for a list of commands.

[HP: 97%] [ME: 20%] [PE:100%]
>
On the wind, you hear two women chatting about nothing in particular.

[HP: 97%] [ME: 20%] [PE:100%]
>
o all o all wave
Ok.

[HP: 97%] [ME: 20%] [PE:100%]
>
Your symbol slowly begins to melt and reform!

[HP:100%] [ME: 29%] [PE:100%]
>
o all o skeleton wave
Ok.

[HP:100%] [ME: 29%] [PE:100%]
>
res
You are already resting.
Off in the distance, you hear the sounds of a blacksmith.

[HP:100%] [ME: 38%] [PE:100%]
>
o all order skele wave
Ok.

[HP:100%] [ME: 47%] [PE:100%]
>
Off in the distance, you hear the sounds of a blacksmith.

[HP:100%] [ME: 47%] [PE:100%]
>
Your symbol slowly begins to melt and reform!

[HP:100%] [ME: 49%] [PE:100%]
>
o all poke skele
A ghastly-white male human pokes a skeleton of a marcid male human in the ribs.
Ok.

[HP:100%] [ME: 49%] [PE:100%]
>
Off in the distance, you hear the sounds of a blacksmith.

[HP:100%] [ME: 49%] [PE:100%]
>
o all o all salute
Ok.

[HP:100%] [ME: 49%] [PE:100%]
>
o all order all salute
Ok.

[HP:100%] [ME: 49%] [PE:100%]
>
o all order skeleton salute
Ok.

[HP:100%] [ME: 49%] [PE:100%]
>
o ghast order skeleton salute
Ok.

Monkhound · **Joined:** Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:57 pm **Posts:** 3

I mean adding new dominate NPC's are great and all but that actually adds another level of prep work to the class to be viable against his counterpart that doesn't even need to bother doing, and has the tools to completely break it.

Tragonis · **Posted:** Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:52 pm

Is it just me or did Syn get trolled here? :lol:

Shattered Kingdoms

Hellions are also bad and should be fixed

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