Shattered Kingdoms

Dulrik has previously said masters were meant to be complete chars. This discussion is about actually helping that to be the case. Dulrik said earlier in this particular thread that he is the one who wanted this thread started. Dulrik also said something about adjusting the enchanted eq thief code compared to the unenchanted eq. That being said, tree, might you want to reconsider your profanity-laden flame?

Oh, and Jughead, I like you too.

The real question is what are you trying to fix with this? Are you trying to give mid-level characters a reason to stick around? If so, then removing thieves's code for Master level characters makes them more attractive to play. Are you trying to make Master level characters more viable in pk?
If so, then again, having better equipment with better saves makes pk more viable. If you don't want either of these things to happen and want something that protects the status quo with GM characters holding onto the best "toys" SK has to offer and have a strong advantage over a Master level character, then vote against this option.

Some players hit master's level on the way to GM and barely stop leveling, while other players have never had a GM character. This idea would help make the game more interesting to play for those who do not GM easily. If you prefer GM's to have advantages that makes it "un-fun" to play Masters through lose of equipment or dying in PK, or if it takes 100+ hours to get to where the real fun starts many people will find something else to do. I've heard some players say they do not want every player to become a GM( not in this thread), but everytime I hear it I think what they are really saying is "I like being able to do things here other people can't" and so preserve their own influence in the game.

I know I'm mixing two issues here, thieve's code and playerbase attitudes but I believe they are linked somewhat. How many times over the years have you seen a player with plenty of knowledge and skill RP a character that works hard to spread their knowledge to other characters. If you don't see those characters too often I say its because its a power issue in the game. Lifting the thieves code from Master level characters would help alleviate the gap and make Masters more competitive with GM's.

P.S. I think the hoarding is a side issue that could be addressed in many ways if this idea is coded. The main issue is a Master being a more complete character.

The last 10 levels not only equal more HP but also better saves, better chance of your skills working. The change is noticeable but not huge. As a GM you would be more powerful than a master but you wouldnt be as powerful because enchantments would be similar.

The change at saves is not noticable if a master level swashie can get a full set of mithril skins and treasures giving him +55 MP +30 fort +30 will. He will practically be immune to all spells while keeping armor that is made for GMs only obviously.

Unless all good AC adamanatite/mithril/energy is taken to champ+ level to begin as is(without extra enchantments) the 30 hours master level char will keep equally good armor as a 90-100 hours GM. Or unless the levelling begins to slow down at expert and not master as it is today, then it would take effort to get to master and thus keep the good lewt.

I don't think we need more 30 hours PCs running around with phat lewt/sick armor until they are bored, deleted, the player creates a new 30 hours master char to repeat the process.

Why does it matter? The veterans will hit GM relatively quickly no matter what, anyways, play for a short time and delete anyways. Your argument holds no water. All it means is that the veterans will take considerably less to be able to do this, which in the end I guess sucks, but does it really matter?

If they weren't planning to play a long-term character before, no changes we make are going to encourage them to do it afterwards.

This is more for the newbies and the people who don't have the time to hit that level, or who would much rather stick around to RP instead of spend a lot of wasted time leveling up. The ones who want the bonus will get it, and the bonus is ALWAYS worth it. You cannot tell me with a straight face that the bonus would not be worth it regardless of the character, because ANY advantage is ALWAYS good.

This was the initial idea behind the wimping in levelling.

If you were going GM in 20 hours(or less, bards + cabal spells is nasty) you would say at first hard time of your character "Screw this, I'm deleting and rolling a new char, in 2 days he'll be GM again". Now that it takes quite some more effort, people stick to their characters more.

Now if you make anything available to 30 hours characters(read: master), this will happen again.

And I think D has mentioned something above 100 hours for anyone to hit GM. If people as you say don't want to waste time to sit and level or are too bored, sucks to be them I guess.

Right, cause a newbie that wants to RP will be like "OMG I need +2 willpower and +4 MP on this belt so I can continue this session. And yes, I may know what I need and how to get it and lust this l33t trrinket, but I do not know how to level. Poor me. Whaaa..."

There is still the trick of convincing someone to enchant an item for you which in itself takes quite a while and might actually promote more RP before GM.
I do agree that some of the high level gear may need to have its level raised adamantie mithril and energy to champion.

While I still support the original suggestion, there are alternatives for those who want to see GM perogatives maintained. We're looking to make the end-game more casual and newbie friendly, and that doesn't have to mean directly stripping advantages from GMs.

One solution would be to revamp the enchant system, so that having super enchanted gear isn't as vital. If Dark Avenger's claim is true, that the GM save bonus is negligible compared to gear enchants, we've good evidence that the system is out of hand. I fail to see how our current enchant system is anything but a timesink, anyway. Halving the power of enchants (and art) might be a good place to start. Alternatively, we could just put more limits on PC enchants, leaving found gear more valuable.

The result: A GM's save bonus becomes more useful. At the same time players without the knowledge or time to maintain greatly enchanted can still compete - at a disadvantage, of course.

Considering a major part of RP nowadays involves PK, yes, I suppose he does want +2 willpower and +4 magical protection on his belt.