Shattered Kingdoms

I'm sorry, but as long as Hellions can hide, be invisible, and then chop someone in half from the shadows, then rogues should most definitely be aberrant.

Actually, I would like to hear the reason why Hellions are allowed to 'backstab' from the shadows and still be considered aberrant and yet, rogues can't be it in the first place for that reason.

Theres a distinction in the mindset, rogues learn to steal, thats pretty dishonorable, hellions wont steal, they will tell you you are weak if you are not ready for them when they come and take it by force.

Sorry, that doesn't cut it. Hellions take anything they want, they just use the lame RP of "they're weaker than me." It is still stealing.

That's why you issue a challenge. Good god, hellions can cleave without a challenge, should we force them to be miscreant or diabolic?

Okay... first of all, that only affects aberrant, not principled. Secondly, a "fighting style" does not necessarily have any emotion, or intent, associated with it. To some, it is just the tools you are able to use. Is there something "unprincipled" about going ethereal and backstabbing a necromancer who has an army of undead? If you think so, you're insane.


Thanks for telling everyone their character concepts. That's total speculation and also completely wrong in many cases.


No... rogues HAVE served and LED (I was the Peacekeeper leader for crying out loud, and also was brought into a knightly order of Alshain by our Paladin HF) principled societies while being so themselves, except now they CAN'T because the creation halls said so.

I've shown a REAL example, my very first character, that contradicts the necessity for the alignment change.

This is completely lame. In effect, Dulrik, you've insulted our ability as a playerbase to play a character instead of a skillset. The WORST part is that there was absolutely no reason to make this change. There is, however, a multitude of reasons to change it back.

When I think of an Aberrant rogue I think of Angel Eyes from the "Good, The Bad, and The Ugly".

He was a rotten hijo de puta and an evil bastard, but HE ALWAYS DID WHAT HE WAS PAID FOR. He had his personal honor and he never violated it. That is what being aberrant is about.

An aberrant rogue could just as easily tell someone that they were marked for death and then come and kill them as easily as a hellion does. An aberrant rogue could just as easily tell you that they are going to take X item from you and then use any means by which to take it including stealing it. A hellion could do the same.

A principled rogue might refuse to ever backstab someone unless it was for the greater good. Which is the only reason principled people kill to begin with. The same applies to stealing.

Yes, these alignments are harder for the rogue to play, especially given the stigma about their skills. These alignments are hard for any class to play though. That's what makes them fun to play. Everything presented for why these alignments should be removed is pure sophistry.

This is why the aberrant rogue would challenge the person first.

That's also the intent of the hellion's skill set. They choose to rise above it though just as a rogue could. (At least a GOOD hellion would)

Intent is the definition of alignment.

Honor is something no man can give you and no man can take away. Honor comes from yourself and can only be lost by you. It has nothing to do with your profession. All things can be done with honor...just some thing take a little more work.

As far as your last part...you're just wrong.

Put things in the light you have set them in (including the rest of your post), I am able to see what you mean and agree with your assessment.

I attempted to defend a reason for the change. I simply tried to offer some kind of explanations for it. They weren't the best? So be it. This does seem like one of the stranger tweaks to the game. Ah well. I'll just go crawl down into one of those staircases in my sack and disappear again for now.

I do chuckle at some of the other responses my post generated.

I've listed reasons and so have several other people. Just because you don't agree with them doesn't make them not reasons. In this situation, we will just agree to disagree and I find that perfectly acceptable.

I disagree with what the designers of D&D 4E did to the alignment system. It's a dumbed down version that still uses some (but not all) of the old terms even though they don't mean the same thing. Still, I don't argue that they didn't have reasons for doing what they did. I also have no doubt I'll still be playing D&D 4E even though I don't think what they released should be called D&D anymore.

Decisions such as these are what make a game different from other games. In SK, you can't ever change your class or alignment. That's just the way the world and the game work. In your early life you chose to be a rogue and in learning to take the class, you associated and trained with a master of the profession and did all the things that class would do. Even if you never stole again, you've practiced the basics.

Note that this isn't restricting people from being GOOD rogues. I don't know why people are apparently prejudiced against the scrupulous alignment. It's exactly the right alignment for people who want to be sneaky and still be good. Robin Hood was scrupulous. But people who are principled are more stubborn about sticking to their ethics, even though that doesn't necessarily make them more good. A principled person would abhore the thought of behaving like a rogue.

As for not being aberrant, these arguments that use hellions as an example are bunk. There's nothing innately dishonorable about using cleave. It doesn't require you to hit someone in the back, just that you attack first. Ideally, you have so intimidated your opponent that when you "magnanimously" give them the first shot, they use it to [REDACTED] their pants. Then you go ahead and take their head.

The hellion code forbids you to attack an opponent without first challenging them. It specifically states that a hellion finds it repulsive to behave like a rogue or assassin and that other hellions will not respect those that do. A hellion does not have stealth powers so that he can attack from the shadows. Stealth is used to increase his intimidation powers, because you don't dare to speak ill of them when they could suddenly tap you on the shoulder and demand your obeisance.

Granted people have been playing hellions (and paladins) badly since day one. I've had some thoughts about how to deal with this. One way would be that if you ever attacked when your opponent couldn't see you, it would automatically cause a blemishment that would have to be atoned. I could also see this in the case of paladins attacking other light auras.

At any rate, whether you agree with me or not, I've made my case and I'm sticking to it.

Well, your case is really weak and hopefully you'll realize that. This isn't a discussion about 4th Edition DnD or an argument about whether hellions or paladins behave correctly. It's about rogues. Specifically, it's about you seeing a skillset as making a character's RP. You've used the phrase "behaving like a rogue" so many times. Just look at that phrase and tell me you don't see anything wrong with it.



Actually, you choose your alignment and class, THEN you start out as a novice without knowing how to do any skills at all save using a dagger in combat. Stealing, peeking, backstabbing, planting, even lock picking, are all unlearned, just like a barbarian starting out has no idea how to berserk. There's nothing keeping you from leaving steal, pick lock, and backstab at unlearned, although prime examples have been given in this thread where stealing, picking locks, and backstabbing could be easily seen as aberrant or principled.

Your second point, which is that principled people are too "honourable" for being rogues, uses this as the crux.

There's that nasty phrase "Behaving like a rogue" again. Let me please reiterate that is isn't someone's skillset that determine's someone's RP, it's their RP which determines their skillset. On TOP of that, "Principled characters try to avoid killing, but do not necessarily shy away from lethal force in the face of unrepentent evil." There's a difference between backstabbing someone who's sleeping in an inn, and backstabbing a necromancer as he attacks a city. Also, stealing wands of say, energy drain, or scrolls of FOD, from said necromancer as he runs through your city would be hardly considered dishonourable, even as a principled character. (Hint: No where in the principled helpfile does someone's personal honor come into question. As a true principled rogue, I'd be willing to catch flak for fighting "Dishonourably" against a necromancer, such as backstabbing him, if I knew it saved lives of innocent people in the end)

As far as aberrant goes, Cannibal has stated reasons more valid than any I could conceive. But your own argument is self-defeating: We're arguing that hellions' skillsets are very similar to a rogues, and because the skillset is the only reason this is being done, it should be left alone. You used the argument of a hellion's code against the rogue, but that's the thing. Rogues -have- no set code to abide by. They can be selfish, OR they (should be able to) be aberrant. Is it different? Of course! But don't take away the chance for someone to play that sort of character. Not all evil rogues should have to be completely selfish or stark-raving mad, just like not all light-aura'd rogues should have to exercise a "lack of caution" in dealing with evil-doers.

What I meant with my first comment was there have been no problems in-game coming from principled or aberrant rogues that I've seen, only good things, yet you changed it anyway. It was completely unnecessary and should be reverted.

To close, although you may be satisfied with "agreeing to disagree," I'm not. I'm not arguing to hear myself talk, I'm arguing because I know I'm right, you're wrong, and I want to see something come of it. I've looked at this argument from both sides, and it's very clear that in the end, taking away even the -option- of rogues to be principled or aberrant is nothing more than an insult to the mentality of the players and a hampering of good RP.

Horrid logic or not (which it is), Edoras, D just evoked the DM law.