Ethereal and necros

Nightwing · **Posted:** Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:40 pm

Styles wrote:

Like I said before, it's not fun for me (or for most players) being on either side of such a large imbalance. It's way more fun to excel starting on an even playing field where it's you, not your overpowered class, that makes the difference.

While it is the primary goal of everyone on the mud to "have fun," the manifestation of that objective varies dramatically depending on the player's bent and styles. But ultimately, here's the question you have to answer: if you were playing the necromancer, and your opponent had a character of your class, do you honestly think the outcome would be any different?

Here it is, in seven words:

It's not the class. It's the player.

Rodwen · **Joined:** Fri Dec 26, 2008 1:22 pm **Posts:** 1648

Nightwing wrote:

Here it is, in seven words:

It's not the class. It's the player.

Rodwen wrote:

Take your skill level at playing a barb and convert that to skill at playing a necro. So, person A is as good at playing a barb as person B is at playing a necro. I bet player B wins 75%, or more, of the time.

I don't like your statement.

Nightwing · **Posted:** Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:54 pm

That statement is both completely unprovable and anecdotally false. If a barbarian were to put in the same amount of time that a necro did in preparation, he'd be a nigh unstoppable force (e.g., Alaric, Rorey).

ladyjennbo · **Posted:** Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:56 pm

Nightwing wrote:

If you want to beat a necromancer, then you have to out-prepare them.

jennbo, you half-admitted this earlier in your post, when you said that you quit playing a necromancer because of the incredible amount of effort that goes into maintenance. Necromancers have to prepare far more than any other class to be even remotely competitive, and if you're unwilling to match (or really, beat) that level of preparation then you don't deserve to win.

The reason is only because I don't have tons of time as a full-time working mom.

Other players put plenty of time and effort into their characters, and still have trouble against a well-prepped necro. I don't even play a lightie and I think necromancers would be fine, heck, even more creative without their animates having bash. I want necromancers to be powerful, but o all bash is lazy. I want to see elves get deleveled by e-drain again, or to have fear screw up more group formations like I've seen in some great logs. There's a ton of cool controls in the game too that don't get utilized nearly enough!

I don't think there's a single log of Surrit getting owned by a one or two person group. That's because Edoras is awesome and puts prep into his characters, but so do Ardith and lots of other players around here, and they still can't beat him without a huge group.

I'm on your side. I don't want necromancers nerfed. But removing bash from animates isn't a nerf, it's just a side effect that will make them cooler, IMO. The well-prepped players would be even more effective if bash was removed from animates.

Rodwen · **Joined:** Fri Dec 26, 2008 1:22 pm **Posts:** 1648

Nightwing wrote:

That statement is both completely unprovable and anecdotally false. If a barbarian were to put in the same amount of time that a necro did in preparation, he'd be a nigh unstoppable force (e.g., Alaric, Rorey).

You are adding in an extra variable. Don't you realize this? If the barb and necro put in the same amount of prep time, everyone that you're arguing against is saying the same thing. The necro would win way more often than the barb.

I can't prove it, but you can't disprove it either. Deal with it.

Styles · **Posted:** Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:09 pm

Nightwing wrote:

While it is the primary goal of everyone on the mud to "have fun," the manifestation of that objective varies dramatically depending on the player's bent and styles. But ultimately, here's the question you have to answer: if you were playing the necromancer, and your opponent had a character of your class, do you honestly think the outcome would be any different?

The main difference for me if I played a necromancer is that I would have a much easier time in PvE than with any other class. I wouldn't ever need to group up to go get something; I could just solo my way through tough areas with no trouble. I am not a twink or a PK enthusiast hell-bent on curbstomping entire factions solo, so it would make no difference in PvP. I would not be marching my 10 GM barbarians around to go own everyone. I would be in the Necropolis making heavy use of the 'idea' command. But, if I were for some reason forced to PvP all the time then, yes, I would be more successful with a necromancer. It's not even close. I mean, what are YOU going to do to stop me?

Quote:

Here it is, in seven words:

It's not the class. It's the player.

Sorry, no. It's the class. If you had to fight your identical SK twin and he got to play a necromancer, you're not going to beat him. Nobody is. No class is going to be able to take him on. Trying to take him on with other classes is like bringing a knife to a gunfight.

Styles · **Posted:** Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:14 pm

Nightwing wrote:

That statement is both completely unprovable and anecdotally false. If a barbarian were to put in the same amount of time that a necro did in preparation, he'd be a nigh unstoppable force (e.g., Alaric, Rorey).

Yeah, it's pretty awesome to be able to play a barbarian and own face just like a necromancer, without even having the ability to use etherealform to escape when the fight isn't going your way. You have to give Alaric props for that. I recall he also soloed multiple cabal guardians before going on a solo trip through all of the outer planes to snatch up some loot he had located, all before returning to Exile to single-handedly drain the Peacekeeper coffers in about 10 minutes. Or was it 5 minutes? I don't remember.

I guess you're right. What was I thinking?

Rodwen · **Joined:** Fri Dec 26, 2008 1:22 pm **Posts:** 1648

Styles wrote:

Nightwing wrote:

That statement is both completely unprovable and anecdotally false. If a barbarian were to put in the same amount of time that a necro did in preparation, he'd be a nigh unstoppable force (e.g., Alaric, Rorey).

Yeah, it's pretty awesome to be able to play a barbarian and own face just like a necromancer, without even having the ability to use etherealform to escape when the fight isn't going your way. You have to give Alaric props for that. I recall he also soloed multiple cabal guardians before going on a solo trip through all of the outer planes to snatch up some loot he had located, all before returning to Exile to single-handedly drain the Peacekeeper coffers in about 10 minutes. Or was it 5 minutes? I don't remember.

I guess you're right. What was I thinking?

And in case you missed it Nightwing, I bolded the sarcastic parts for you.

Aust · **Joined:** Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:51 am **Posts:** 317

Nightwing · **Posted:** Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:30 pm

Thanks, Rodwen.

Know what else was different? Alaric had friends. Necromancers don't. They have to be able to do some of those things solo because they shouldn't be receiving the same level of support that a charismatic leader would. There's a beautiful balance in the meta-game there that you apparently fail to appreciate.

I really want you to try playing a necromancer. I really, really do.

Shattered Kingdoms

Ethereal and necros

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