Code Update 12/10/2012 - Necromancer Debate

jerinx · **Posted:** Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:34 am

Edoras wrote:

jerinx wrote:

That was a GM skeleton that got brought to 32% from a master-level holy word. Not very useful for rescuing, since it would likely just die during the order lag of whoever ordered the rescue.

I think people need to break themselves of the concept that when you have an army of 7-10, every individual NPC needs to be a stand-alone survival mechanism. Necros have been spoiled for a very long time - ever since they were 'compensated' for the NPC HP equalization years ago that made an individual undead stop being equal to an ubermob. A controlled undead is already generally better/equivalent to sorc charms, and an animated undead isn't shabby. Necromancers unable get a terrible army capable of wiping 2+ PCs out in a manner of rounds is not a nerf - it's balance. Able to get taken down reasonably by bolt of glory? That's how it should be.

If the skeleton died in 1-2 rounds to a GM swash, then I'd have room for concern. Test them against warriors instead of holy word. If they are still found wanting (IE: you have 0 chance of killing an individual warrior with a group of them), then we can talk. If you have that chance, then work with what you have, I'd say.

People need to adjust their strategy, now. This isn't entirely unreasonable, especially with the compensatory buffs Dulrik made to give them alternatives.

But, back to the main point. SPRITE PRIESTS PLEASE.

Edoras · **Posted:** Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:38 am

jerinx wrote:

If the skeleton died in 1-2 rounds to a GM swash, then I'd have room for concern. Test them against warriors instead of holy word. If they are still found wanting (IE: you have 0 chance of killing an individual warrior with a group of them), then we can talk. If you have that chance, then work with what you have, I'd say.

I'm not sure if you realize this, but low HP means low HP. That same GM skeleton is going to die in 3 hits from an HoL, or easily in two rounds from a buffed up swashie.

Teh_Peso · **Posted:** Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:39 am

Edoras wrote:

Dulrik wrote:

Teh_Peso wrote:

Songs of antimagic need to be made aggro due to the dispel thing, I think

Good point. Only when it gets to the point of actually dispelling though.

I disagree, once it gets to the point of dispelling it's really screwing people over, like turning charms against their owners.

Agreed.

shadow · **Joined:** Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:51 am **Posts:** 442

jerinx wrote:

Ridiculously great improvement to the enchantment system, more of an incentive to play bards, and more strategy to necros than o all bash and zap self (with a peppering of c 'fear' vs groups). Wish it came 3 months ago, but I approve. Madly. Necros are now only a reasonable extent better than sorcerers for a pet army, and have swapped utility for now over-the-top maledictions.

Do zombies still have the ridiculous HP base per level they used to? If they can have that at level 50, #&*$ just got serious with animate dead.

My only suggestion:
Have there be a special liquid in the game (blood? oil? lemonade? "alchemical fluid?") that you can fill a water container with. Make this special liquid excepted from the malediction timer, so that if you cast poison/plague on it (also consider allowing weaken/curse on water containers after this change), it will never fade unless you use the empty command (or run out of liquid in the container).

Then have a command such as "dip" or "coat" which allows someone to put a weapon in this liquid source that allows instant transfer of maledictions to weapons. Retain the timer for maledictions once they reach the weapon.

Also, why doesn't this update include sprite priests?

Jerinx said it best, I think. And also, necros shoouldn't be a class that you HAVE and CAN play only solo. It should be just as much a class to play in a group as others. Necro players QQ because now they may indeed need others to do their stuff.

evena · **Posted:** Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:40 am

Wait. Now I'm confused, Edoras: You whined earlier that all it took to take out a necro before the changes was a few well-placed holy words.

Sounds kinda like it's the same now.

Nightwing · **Posted:** Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:41 am

The difference is that the necro can no longer win in that same time interval.

jerinx · **Posted:** Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:41 am

Edoras wrote:

jerinx wrote:

If the skeleton died in 1-2 rounds to a GM swash, then I'd have room for concern. Test them against warriors instead of holy word. If they are still found wanting (IE: you have 0 chance of killing an individual warrior with a group of them), then we can talk. If you have that chance, then work with what you have, I'd say.

I'm not sure if you realize this, but low HP means low HP. That same GM skeleton is going to die in 3 hits from an HoL, or easily in two rounds from a buffed up swashie.

I'm not sure if you realize tanks have more in their skillset than their HP to survive. This is what testing is for, not conjecture based on knee-jerk distaste for your class getting brought into balance with other classes in the game.

evena also said truth. Your main point of contest for necros prior to this nerf was that 2 holy words could wipe out your army. Are you sad that this is now actually the truth?

Nightwing, you're telling me a necro has a right to tear through 2-3 NPCs in the time it takes to cast 2 holy words? If a priest is back row, your statement implies you think necromancers have a right to "win" (kill the enemy group protecting the holy worder) in the cast of 2 holy words.

/sprite priests, why can't I has?

evena · **Posted:** Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:47 am

Nightwing wrote:

The difference is that the necro can no longer win in that same time interval.

No, no. I'm quite sure that we were repeatedly assured that anyone who wasn't a complete noob would beat the necro every time.

Edoras · **Posted:** Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:25 am

The necro could never win with an animate army against someone who knew how to pre-cast holy word and use the elite "follow" and "flee" commands. Even moreso now.

evena · **Posted:** Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:29 am

Follow?

You mean like . . . more than one PC could kill a necro?

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Code Update 12/10/2012 - Necromancer Debate

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