Shattered Kingdoms

I agree with Cordance when it comes to 'rogues being fine when they're not the focus.' They need help in survivability if they get pushed to the front line? Is that what we're getting at?

Basically, scouts have herbs and bards have songs which can heal both themselves and party members. Rogues stick out as the only adventurer who doesn't have a healing ability, since I really wouldn't cont scrolls as a "healing" and instead as a "utility" ability due to the requirements of builders or other players to turn it into a healing ability.

It seems that there's more interest in letting rogues at least survive in the front row if not deal damage. Do they really not get tumble? Why don't they get tumble?

redefine/simplify the concept of tumble.

Tumbling, the bard skill, I mean. Why don't rogues get it?

Im going to go over how I understand rogues to work. Disclaimer Ive played a few in my time none of them have been amazing.

Not counting cabal skills. A rogue has back stab and recite. Not counting barbs they have a reasonable chance using these skills one on one but it is mostly an all or nothing tactic which makes for uninteresting encounters. Against barbs well rogues should go home and get a group.
Group vs one Rogues are quite effective. They can target people down the person being ganked has little chance to retarget, then again if your failing group vs one you need to learn more about PvP.
Group vs group a rogue is either really useful or dead weight. If the rogue is targeted they do nothing but die quickly. If they are not they help take out people at the rear of formations mostly healers and sorcerors aka the deadly people.

My thoughts on rogues is they need something to do well they are the target.
Tumble would give let the rogue do what they are designed to do in group. Helping out a little in one on one as pets and guards could be tumbled around. In group formation rogues would be a scary threat.
The problem with giving rogues more offensive ability is they are already very much an all or nothing if they are pushed more along that line pvp with rogues becomes very uninteresting.
Perhaps an enhance dodge stance similar to hedgehog stance of swashbucklers but a battle stance doesnt really strike me as a rogue thing.
Another interesting idea I had was abduct ability that forced someone (out of combat) to move a room with you. It would let you target someone at the rear of formation and force them to follow you for a room of moment. Pulling them out of formation and letting you target them. Although this has complications with someone being in a group that arrives after combat has started. Also what if you target a group leader. Also open to abuse of dragging people into guard formations aggro NPCs etc.

I really feel tumble is the answer to the question. I see it doing little to nothing in 1v1 but most useful in large group combat.

Advantageously, it might also take all of 30 seconds to give rogues tumbling.

Locks already know what key is required, and I think tumbling would help rogues a lot. Those two would be very interesting abilities for the rogue.

Ohh...I wanna go back to propose to try to make circle stab hit anyone that is on an 'edge' (with dmg modifications of course).

I had a great idea.. I like how I can just alias a button to add the behind command to my hamstring, back stab etcetera... And I know its good giving us the option since we may not want to back stab the second row barbarian. But what about a passive skill called something like 'Slip'?

It would roll for a chance to avoid group formation based on Your size, making sprites and halflings good at such. Your dexterity against who you are trying to slip by, because if im faster then that minotaur and tiny, I'll just zip between his legs. And your level against theres, because being stopped by store bought pets is stupid. And if you fail a slip, you could catch and elbow or even be knocked prone.

So basically really small creatures would get a form of natural reach?

Rogues don't need the ability to sometimes target whoever they want with circles.