Why swashbuckler is still a terrible class

ObjectivistActivist · **Posted:** Sun May 25, 2014 8:19 am

Sigh. It's always more enjoyable for the players to balance with buffs rather than nerfs.

It's not that merc and barb are necessarily defensively overpowered in the melee department, it's that swashbucklers lack critical elements to make them competitive in that field.

If you find bugs in dual wield defensive stats, that might balance the field, but the fact that taunt doesn't hit non-sentient/deafened and that swashbucklers don't have rescue to redirect damage to themselves is a serious drawback for the class defensively.

Dulrik · **Posted:** Sun May 25, 2014 8:24 am

I could also apply a few additional buff/changes to swashbucklers. But if indeed merc/barb are overpowered, then the correct solution for game balance is not to buff swash until they are equivalently overpowered.

I spent a good deal of time testing parry rates during the last swash buff to get to what I felt was an acceptable success ratio that would not result in a completely invincible swash. I have not tested the equivalent for merc/barb in a long time and they are much more likely to have become too good with various layers of skills and enchant changes that have been applied over the years.

Galthryn · **Joined:** Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:40 am **Posts:** 355

Quote:

a completely invincible swash

Again not a genius at mechanics here, but I don't think this is going to happen unless swashies start parrying arrows or having a greater chance of parrying unarmed fists.

I feel that mercs/barbs should be considering fighting a swashie in the front row a really bad idea, unless they have a weapon that can bypass the swashie parries. There's several tactics barbs/mercs could employ to defeat a swashie, but I don't think its fair to the swashie if he is on a 50-50 playing field against another warrior in the front row, since the swashie sacrifices so much in versatility to, I presume, gain an edge in front row combat.

ninja_ardith · **Joined:** Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:21 pm **Posts:** 4452

Dulrik wrote:

I could also apply a few additional buff/changes to swashbucklers. But if indeed merc/barb are overpowered, then the correct solution for game balance is not to buff swash until they are equivalently overpowered.

I spent a good deal of time testing parry rates during the last swash buff to get to what I felt was an acceptable success ratio that would not result in a completely invincible swash. I have not tested the equivalent for merc/barb in a long time and they are much more likely to have become too good with various layers of skills and enchant changes that have been applied over the years.

I don't think the problem is that mercs and barbs are parrying too much. It's that swashbucklers aren't parrying at all. Incidentally this only seems to occur when they face PC mercs and barbs. In the PvE game, swashbucklers seem to do all right.

ninja_ardith · **Joined:** Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:21 pm **Posts:** 4452

Dulrik wrote:

I could also apply a few additional buff/changes to swashbucklers. But if indeed merc/barb are overpowered, then the correct solution for game balance is not to buff swash until they are equivalently overpowered.

I spent a good deal of time testing parry rates during the last swash buff to get to what I felt was an acceptable success ratio that would not result in a completely invincible swash. I have not tested the equivalent for merc/barb in a long time and they are much more likely to have become too good with various layers of skills and enchant changes that have been applied over the years.

I did a little thinking while I was washing the dishes, and apparently this is an acceptable success ratio?

Code:

[HP: 96%] [ME: 75%] [PE: 93%]
> 
Byron slices at Gaewynth's head, causing a small but painful wound.
Byron slices at Gaewynth's chest, causing a deep gash.
Byron slices Gaewynth's chest, causing a gaping wound!
Byron slices Gaewynth's chest, causing a gaping wound!
Byron slices at Gaewynth's chest, DISEMBOWELING her!
Taab pierces Gaewynth's head, carving a bleeding hole in it!
Taab strikes suddenly, piercing at Gaewynth's chest!  Some GUTS fall!
Taab pierces at Gaewynth's head, cutting a hole in her head!
Taab strikes suddenly, piercing at Gaewynth's chest!  Some GUTS fall!
Taab pierces Gaewynth's mouth, knocking out a few of her teeth!
Byron parries Gaewynth's attack.
Gaewynth's acidic bite slightly singes Byron's chest.
Gaewynth's acidic bite barely burns Byron's chest.
Byron parries Gaewynth's attack.

[HP: 96%] [ME: 75%] [PE: 93%]
> 
!
You start to concentrate.

[HP: 96%] [ME: 75%] [PE: 93%]
> 
Ruavia replies 'What are we doing out there?'

[HP: 96%] [ME: 75%] [PE: 93%]
> 
Gaewynth ripostes Byron's attack!
Gaewynth cleaves at Byron's chest, causing a deep gash.
Byron slices Gaewynth's mouth, knocking out a few of her teeth!
Byron strikes suddenly, slicing at Gaewynth's chest!  Some GUTS fall!
Gaewynth is incapacitated and will slowly die, if not aided.
Byron slices Gaewynth's head.  Gaewynth falls with a blank look on her face!
Gaewynth is DEAD!!
You hear Gaewynth's death cry.
One of your members has left the party.

I generally think that players of online games are a whiny bunch and that they generally don't post any valid complaints, but seriously here you're off your rocker making a class that is based solely off of parrying incapable of doing just that. Out of 13 attacks here Gaewynth only parries one, which leaves the chance of parry for swashbucklers so abysmally low.

This is not acceptable.

Dulrik · **Posted:** Sun May 25, 2014 4:21 pm

As was said, it seems better against PvE. When I tested for PvP, especially merc/barb, I probably was not using as highly optimized characters. But also, there is always bad luck.

ninja_ardith · **Joined:** Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:21 pm **Posts:** 4452

Code:

Taab soars in from southeast.
Gaewynth soars in from southeast.
A wildcat soars in from southeast.
Ruavia soars in from southeast.
A golden-maned lion soars in from southeast.
Gaewynth ripostes a grim-faced bandit's attack!
Gaewynth stings at a grim-faced bandit's chest, smashing a small but painful, wound.
Gaewynth ripostes a grim-faced bandit's attack!
Gaewynth cleaves at a grim-faced bandit's head, causing a small but painful wound.
Gaewynth ripostes a grim-faced bandit's attack!
Gaewynth cleaves a grim-faced bandit's mouth, knocking out a few of his teeth!

A grim-faced bandit stabs Taab's face, slightly puncturing his cheek.
Taab's shield blocks a grim-faced bandit's attack.
Taab parries a grim-faced bandit's attack.
Gaewynth ripostes a bandit corporal's attack!
Gaewynth stings at a bandit corporal's chest, smashing a small but painful, wound.
Gaewynth parries a bandit corporal's attack.
Gaewynth ripostes a bandit corporal's attack!
Gaewynth cleaves at a bandit corporal's chest, causing a deep gash.
A bandit corporal pounds Gaewynth's forehead, causing a small gash.
Gaewynth ripostes a bandit corporal's attack!
Gaewynth cleaves a bandit corporal's chest, cutting a small but painful, wound.
Gaewynth ripostes a bandit corporal's attack!
Gaewynth stings at a bandit corporal's head, causing a pulsating wound.

Swashbucklers do better in the PvE game of course. But you can't duplicate these kind of results against PCs. And wimping parry on mercenaries and barbarians is not going to in any wimp those two classes. The reason that they merc and barb are so good is because they can pick up weapons like bill/glaive/halberd and do things like this:

Code:

Life 100 Mana 100 Move  99  

Baltus misses a jaundiced male human.
Baltus misses a jaundiced male human.
You cleave at a jaundiced male human's chest, causing a deep gash.
You cleave a jaundiced male human's head, tearing open a bleeding wound!
You cleave a jaundiced male human's chest, causing a gaping wound!
You cleave a jaundiced male human's mouth, knocking out a few of his teeth!
You cleave a jaundiced male human's jaw, breaking it with a loud *SNAP*
A jaundiced male human slashes at Baltus's head, causing a small but painful
 wound.
A jaundiced male human slashes at Baltus's chest, DISEMBOWELING him!
A heavy imperial warhorse beats at Baltus's stomach, barely wounding him.
A heavy imperial warhorse heaves his bulk upward and crashes down toward his
 opponents!
A heavy imperial warhorse beats at Baltus's chest, making him cough up blood!
A heavy imperial warhorse beats at Baltus's chest, making him cough up blood!
A heavy imperial warhorse beats at Baltus's left toe, bruising it slightly.
Baltus is blinded by the dirt in his eyes!
A legionnaire captain crushes Baltus's chest, making him cough up blood!
A legionnaire captain strikes suddenly, crushing Baltus's chest!  Some GUTS
 fall!
A legionnaire captain strikes suddenly, crushing Baltus's chest!  Some GUTS
 fall!
A legionnaire captain strikes suddenly, slicing at Baltus's chest!  Some GUTS
 fall!
A legionnaire captain slices at Baltus's stomach, scratching him slightly.
Baltus parries a legionnaire captain's attack.
A legionnaire captain strikes suddenly, slicing at Baltus's chest!  Some GUTS
 fall!
Overall, a jaundiced male human has some big nasty wounds and scratches.

Life 100 Mana 100 Move  97  

A wily male half-elf stops using a well-balanced cutlass with an olive leaf
 hilt.

Life 100 Mana 100 Move  97  

Baltus charges at a jaundiced male human's right wrist, causing a big gash.
Baltus charges at a jaundiced male human's chest, causing a gaping wound!
You tear a jaundiced male human's windpipe, resulting in a shower of BLOOD!
The unnatural darkness dissipates.
You cleave a jaundiced male human's head.  A jaundiced male human falls with a
 blank look on his face!
A jaundiced male human is DEAD!!
You hear a jaundiced male human's death cry.

That's my elf mercenary specialized in the bill 2-rounding a hellion in heavy armor. I hear people crying about massive weapons being the reason that swashbucklers can't compete, but they're only part of the problem. They clearly aren't going to compete against massives, but they aren't even able to compete to begin with, and they certainly cannot duplicate the kind of carnage that log snippet shows. And that's before the enchant changes where you couldn't enchant for speed. Now you can enchant for speed. Tank isn't really that viable of an option when you can do such murderous damage with a mercenary or barbarian in such a short amount of time.

So really, wimp parry for barbs and mercs, but that ain't gonna change a thing about how OP those classes are.

jreid_1985 · **Posted:** Tue May 27, 2014 6:05 pm

You don't need to tweak parry rates at all on other classes. Just design the swash class to automatically bypass the penalties to parry massives and boost dodge chance and done.

patrisaurus · **Posted:** Tue May 27, 2014 7:12 pm

I like hedgehog in theory as an active.mechanism for doing this but I think the swash should still get something like 3 attacks (aka merc/barb/paladin/etc defensive with a rapier) while hedgehogging for more dodge/massive avoidance.

Dulrik · **Posted:** Tue May 27, 2014 7:35 pm

Send me names of merc/barb characters who are actively maxed out and wasting swashbucklers. I will use those accounts on the test MUD for my next run of tests. Also send me names of swashbucklers that are also maximum geared out.

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Why swashbuckler is still a terrible class

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