Shattered Kingdoms

Ive always found the help file of this skill confusing.


From the helpfile my best reading comprehension of it this should mean I rarely get three attacks. If I get three attacks then rapid shot should kick in giving me four attacks. However this is not how it works. Given that scouts "master archers" are not the best archers in the game (not even close when compared to a merc specialized) perhaps if rapid shot got improved to match the helpfile it would bring them to a comparable level being able to use slower bows and arrows more effectively. Either the skill should get edited or the helpfile to be more clearly stated that it is like fourth attack only for scouts with bows. Something I have never tested is if rapid shot is more effective if you only train second attack and use a slower weapon.

ur doing it wrong

rapid fire works exactly like the help file describes it. w/o haste u should easily be getting 4 shots and w/ haste u should be getting 5 shots.

the number of arrows u can fire per round is affected by both the ammo (50%) and the bow (50%). if u try to use slow ammo and a slow bow, ur not going to get ur full number of attacks and that means rapid fire won't trigger for the extra bonus shot. that's not a problem with the skill or the skill help file tho - that is player error.

ur also wrong about mercenaries being better archers.

if u use the correct combo of bow and ammo, they r both equally effective when it comes to ranged combat. the reason mercs r better than scouts is not cuz they r better archers (cuz they r not - they're pretty much equal at ranged combat) but because they have retreat, which is one of the best skills in the game.

Here are a few statements to support my mercs better archers statement the reasoning to follow. Specialization. Retreat. All crossbows can not make use of scout skills.

Specialization improve their speed and accuracy. Two important facts when it comes to archery of any kind.

Retreat means that you can not lock them in combat like every other class.

Siege crossbows do similar damage to ambush.

ur doing it wrong still

let me jocelyn elders edumucate u, since u aren't bothering to experiment or test things for urself.

specialization ends up being equal to rapid shot when it comes to speed cuz a mercenary and a scout both end up getting the same number of shots per round, if they are using the correct combo of bow and ammo - 4 shots w/o haste and 5 shots w/ haste

the accuracy gained by specialization is offset by the fact that mercenaries suffer an accuracy penalty with ranged weapons for each piece of heavy armor they wear. so mercs r not going to be as accurate as a scout, unless they give up one of the staples of their class - heavy armor.

and siege crossbows don't do similar damage to ambush - lulz. but i will indulge ur fantasy and assume they do...u realize u can use a crossbow as a scout, right? equip a siege x-bow, camo, and ur ambush will do more damage...then switch to a bow + battle arrows for better sustained damage

retreat is one of the best skills in the game and it is broken overpowered when combined with skirmish. dulrik should remove skirmish from mercenaries rather than give retreat to scouts.

I always thought it was a commonly held belief that a crossbow specc'ed merc will output more damage than a rapid shot scout with a bow, assuming both have properly enchanted weaponry. In addition, mercs have retreat, which means that as long as they can have access to ammo and good weaponry, they're going to be more effective than scouts at ranged combat.

Obviously, scouts also have ambush, tame and can fletch their own arrows, so they're more versatile outside of the fight itself and more self-sufficient, but pound for pound, a mercenary will simply hit harder if he's specialized in crossbow, on top of the fact that he has retreat.

I think that's sensible, and makes sense from a balance and gameplay perspective: The merc is less versatile in that he has to use his spec subtype only, and he also has to buy his own arrows or have another fletch them, but once he gets the proper support in that regard he's going to win the fight.

xbow was the superior option when haste + speed enchants stacked cuz it allowed you to get 4 shots w/o haste and 5 shots w/ haste....but now the best u can get with a siege xbow is 4 shots a round. a siege x-bow merc is going to do less damage than an bow scout or a bow merc.

bow is just better in every way after the change. if u need proof, head over to the log site and u will find logs of my merc destroying people with a bow. 5 shots with battle arrows is going to do more damage than 4 shots with siege bolts cuz the extra shot gets buffed by things like str bonus, frenzy, warpath, etc. it's also better cuz u take down stone skin and mirror image faster than a siege x-bow.

Fair enough then, it's still a merc, is my point. A specialized merc is simply more effective once you get to the fight itself than a scout, because you have retreat, more HP, and higher accuracy. Also, with the long-awaited return of useful light-armor skinning, wearing light armor as a ranged spec merc is very much a good option on the table.

I guess you're just agreeing with Cordance on half of her points while also saying she's wrong: You both are saying that mercs are better archers, just for slightly different reasons, all of which are valid. It just looked strange when you said "You're wrong that mercs are better archers than scouts" yet then followed that up with a few huge reasons why mercs are better at ranged combat than scouts. Retreat, rallying cry, specialize granting accuracy, and the higher HP pool of mercenaries pretty clearly demonstrate that mercs are better archers than scouts when you get down to the actual shooting part.

u might want to carefully reread my other posts in this thread

a merc doesn't have higher accuracy than a scout - they have less accuracy, unless they give up heavy armor

if dulrik were to make changes, he should just remove skirmish from mercenaries

Dont get me wrong I dont think scouts should get retreat, I was just listing ways that mercs made better archers.

Finney I have a lot of respect for you as far as knowing the game but you can not ambush with anything that isnt a bow any more. Crossbow ambush is a no go (or I would be using it yes Ive tested it and I just retested it to make sure nothing has changed since I last did.) No melee ambushes any more either you cant even ambush with a sling. I believe it was taken away before staves was taken away from scouts but I could be wrong on my timeline. As to the switching bows after the first round of combat it tends to give you a new first around which is always a single arrow. So Siege bolt to replace ambush Good, then 1 arrow waste of a round, normal arrow attacks. Vs Ambush not as good (the first round attack aka single arrow) followed by normal attacks. Better of just sticking with the siegebow. While I wouldnt say I have all the answers on SK archery I have spent quite some time testing it on my scout looking at different options. Although I will add that I am using a bad size race for archery. There are also advantages against some tactics to making more attacks even if they do as much damage.

Yes you can get five attacks with haste and the right bow. But my complaint was the wording of rapid shot making it sound like free attack. AKA scouts can make better use of a slower bow due to their free attack. Rather than what it is which is just forth attack with bows only. This would have created an interesting mechanic where scouts and mercs where not after the same bow/arrow combination for the most effective results. As to if Im doing it right or not. Im not playing a large or bigger class so I clearly am not doing it right. Sad but true I wanted to test something completely different and my assessment of scouts is they are a support character because everything they can make are better for other people to use.

Although I wasnt planning on talking about how scouts could be improved I would look at changing is giving scouts an armor bonus when they use skins over every other class +1 armor protection when a scout uses a skin over other armor. Herbalism should to increase its spell level of herbs when the scout uses them so scouts using herbs have an edge on every other class using herbs(they can get potions else where if they want to "catch up" that edge). The main reason I look at these two things is because these two skills produce something that is easy to share and will often produce better results in another class. If scouts where to get staves back they would move back into being a very powerful class. Right now I look at everything a scout can do and go if your "side" has one scout your covered. Better off making something that can abuse what the scout can do for you.

u don't need to be playing a large or giant-sized race to do it right

with herculean strength (or as high as u can get w/ giant strength), high level frenzy and 5 shots per round even a sprite (who would get 6 shots lulz) will do good damage with ranged combat - enough to kill any cloth or light armor class quite easily. what u can't do is employ bad tactics, like using a longbow with slow ammo or an archery bow with fast ammo, and then wonder why ur damage is lacking.

u must use a combo of bow + ammo that gets u to 5 shots per round w/ haste and 4 w/o haste