Shattered Kingdoms

I actually really like Dulrik's idea for that sort of skill. Feels a lot more thematic, and still useful but takes a little work.

Regarding the rest though, Mogor makes some pretty good points.

Some classes really are just a "waste of space" in a PvE group, and Rogue is one of them. There's actually often incentive to /not/ take something like a Rogue with you, since a lot of areas have 'random spawn' encounters that will spawn way more frequently with more PCs moving around.

The current saving grace of rogues in PvP is that opposed to mercs/barbs/etc they can do a lot of damage up front in one burst. This is borderline useless in PvE.

There is pretty much no PvE circumstance where 1 priest, 1 rogue, 1 mercenary is a better group than 1 priest, 2 mercenaries.

Until you need a lock picked.

Being forced to drag two borderline garbage-tier classes (rogue, bard) along on adventures, just for the pick lock skill feels very...contrived and forced and I don't think is fun for anyone involved.

You could take a certain in game skill, modify it for damage evasion and give it to all adventuring classes

I agree with this statement. Dulrik's idea is good without being OP as it requires work. It's kind of along the same ideas as what I previously suggested but requires even more work on the character while not being to the point of purely tiresome.

What was the theme for phalanx (aka pikeman)???

Version of this idea was substantially weaker, yet still determined to be far too OP. In my version, the MC member using the ability would summon one of those "elite impartial scouts you see in random places (they're colored dark blue) and it works sit there and spy for a specific person. If today person walked by, the scout would tell the MC member via the cabal channel. I think I called it "Spy Network".

Somehow spy network was way over the top, but this idea is totally fine. I'm confused about that.

I'm pretty sure that Phalanx was adopted almost directly from an idea suggestion that you proposed.
I am perceiving some kind of distress in your post, but I don't understand why, or what seems to be bothering you.


I think that you're probably over-emphasizing the staff's perception of your suggested idea. To be honest, I don't remember ever seeing/reading your spy network idea. At the time, it might have been seen as unnecessary, or the way that it was proposed/sold may have not created the best scenario for understanding or considering the idea, or it may not have been perceived as a good "fit" for where you were proposing it.

In other words, don't get upset because an idea was shot down in the past and you see something similar re-appearing. As much as we all like to think that we're incredible human beings immune to the power of marketing, we're simply not. Sometimes a great suggestion is sandwiched in-between a bunch of terrible suggestions and it just gets overlooked because of it. Other times a great suggestion is lumped into a bunch of great suggestions and it just gets overlooked. Sometimes a great suggestion is sold with really bad marketing, and it never gets bought. Sometimes a terrible suggestion is sold with really great marketing, and turns out to be a dud. Sometimes a great idea just doesn't have the opportunity to be advertised with all the bells and whistles that make people want to buy it. This suggestion, for instance, didn't interest me at all. Then Dulrik threw in some considerations for how it might work, and those details made the idea more agreeable, though still not a hard-sell for me. But it could be.

Again, sounds good to me. The general consensus is minotaurs are a suboptimal race, this would make them more appealing for those interested in variety over standard cookie-cutter choices.

Well, isnt that what we are trying to change here?

I like divert and think it would fit nicely for a rogue. I do want to see more classes have mid combat formation control though, as an intelligent party member could work quickly to counter chaotic situations.
How about roll for swashbuckler then, allowing them to move from their current position to an empty front rank position. For those times when the swashbuckler taunts and gets themselves wrecked, a rescue and roll would put them back in the fight.
Agreed, streetwise sounds very fitting.
Thats your opinion, though seemed to be shared by several.
Again, isnt that what we are trying to change?
These things may not change your mind, as you probably have a grasp of most the game and could move through it easily.
But for those who are newer to it, a rogue with listen could be a life saver.

No. It wasn't my idea. It was Baranov who wrote that idea up. You could go check that out as you have access to the MC forums.

No. I'm not upset that my idea was rejected in favor of a bad idea. I don't care. It isn't my game. I'm merely pointing out that you guys said it was an overpowered ability a few years ago, when it was a much weaker idea, but now that Thuban has brought up a much more powerful version of that idea, you now like it.

You may be perceiving distress in my posts simply because I'm not agreeing with the staff on this stuff. I can't think of any other reason you'd jump to such a conclusion. We're not immune to confirmation bias either.

That sounds very similar to "tumble", a bard skill.

No.

How exactly would the listen skill increases a rogue's repeatable, sustained damage relative to a mercenary or a barbarian?

It will take more than changes to the rogue class alone to fix them, without also making them grossly overpowered. There need to be concurrent changes to multiple other classes. I think the best way to highlight that is the recent changes to the scout class.

I leveled one during the Algorween bonanza to test the changes and while the changes make them better than before, they are still not on par with what I consider to be the five core classes (mercenary, barbarian, priest, shaman and warlock) for PvE right now.

The ideas in this thread would make rogues better than they are right now, but leave them in the exact same situation as the scout class. For the purposes of PvE, the easiest way to make rogues viable is to increase their damage. Otherwise, it will always boil down to a simple question: why bring a rogue when I can bring a mercenary or a barbarian instead, since those classes can also tank in a pinch?

If the only reason is to bring a rogue is to pick a lock, I can always have a sorcerer charm Fivel to pick the lock or have the rogue pick the lock and then tell them to head home.

My bad, I didn't look back at those, I just remember you being really active in the discussions at the time.


I don't remember your idea, nor remember dismissing it as overpowered. That's my point, though- maybe it was rejected as too powerful, maybe it was rejected as a bad sell, or maybe it just didn't receive the attention of other ideas floated at the time. Any of those could just be a matter of how it was packaged, marketed, and served. I don't care if anybody disagrees with the staff on things- *I* don't agree with the staff on everything and I've got about 18 years of arguing with Dulrik under my belt. Disagreement doesn't bother me. I'm probably perceiving the distress based on the multiple '?' at the end of your sentence, and the fact that the it needed to be pointed out at all, but all the better if I'm wrong. Perhaps I just mis-read the nature of the post.